Neema Iyer: Pollicy

Neema Iyer is an artist, technologist and coach.  She is the founder of Pollicy, an award winning feminist civic technology collective based in Kampala, Uganda and serves on Meta's Global Women's Safety Advisory Board.  She was also recently a Practitioner Fellow at Stanford's Digital Civil Society Lab and senior Fellow in Trustworthy AI at Mozilla Foundation.  She currently leads the design of a number of projects focused on building data skills, on fostering conversations on data governance and digital security, and on innovating around technology policy.

Transcript

00:02.22
lifuo
Okay, nima. Thank you, thank you for coming to um, ah entrepreneurship Jenny Podcast we are really grateful for you to come in a 4 years your time. Welcome.

00:14.83
Neema
Thank you I'm happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

00:19.87
lifuo
Well new. Ah, let's just ah jump right into it. Um, what is policy your organization and what do you focus on.

00:29.28
Neema
Yeah, Thanks for the question so policy is a feminist Civic Tech organization. Originally the plan was that I wanted to have a better outlet to support governments to use data more effectively because I felt that. You know people interact with their governments but oftentimes especially in the African context it can be quite a negative interaction. You know I would sort of get this feeling in my stomach every time I had to go get you know?? ah a government document or a government agency and I was thinking isn't there a way that data can be used to improve this process to design these services better.

00:58.10
lifuom10
Um.

01:05.11
lifuom10
M.

01:06.93
Neema
Um, but over time you know with any idea it changed it morphed it grew and now what we have is that we are an organization that looks at how technology impacts our society especially in the African feminist context. But also how does society impact technology. They go handin hand. So. It's really interesting because we're at a point in humanity where technology is accelerating at an unprecedented rate but oftentimes this African perspective is ignored and there's not enough Research. It's not enough.

01:26.48
lifuom10
Right.

01:33.73
lifuom10
M.

01:43.28
Neema
Thought that goes into how are these technologies that are developed in foreign Contexts impacting our society and what say do we have in how they are built and how they are used or how can we maximize how these work in our context. So there's so many questions.

01:59.43
lifuom10
And.

02:00.97
Neema
Come into play when you think about technology but everything that we want to do is from this feminist perspective. So that's my agenda I enjoy working with women I want to see women Thrive I Want to see women in leadership. So this is what is important to me because a lot of the times people ask me? Well what about the boy child What about the men.

02:18.15
lifuom10
In.

02:19.35
Neema
And you know people can go and and start those organizations. But for me this is my passion. It's technology. It's feminism. It's art and I really really love what happens at this intersection.

02:33.44
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah I get it I get it and and and and why the name policy. How did you how to do so ah, select that.

02:41.63
Neema
That's a good question. So every time I start an initiative I spend weeks thinking about a name and when I came up with this name I just thought like it was so it made so much sense and it was so intelligent. But oh my God it's given me so many issues. So.

02:46.58
lifuom10
M.

02:56.90
Neema
The original thought was that it's a combination of 2 words the word to poll so you know you pull people to find out their opinions. Their ideas their feelings so I was thinking about using the word poll like using the word to get data and then the word. Policy like b or l I c y so like why don't you combine the 2 and then you get a unique word P O L L I c y so that's that's the original idea behind it. But yeah, the misspellings I don't know if it's worth it.

03:13.81
lifuom10
Ah, right.

03:26.72
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's interesting. Correct me if I'm I'm I'm wrong. You currently reside in Australia Sydney but your your organization your company is hot headquatter in campalla uganda how did you manage running. Ah, company remotely that you had just started.

03:48.56
Neema
Okay, there's some some timeline issues there. So I started policy in 2017 and then I moved away in 2019 so I was only in country for two years that I started it but the intention was always for it to be a remote company.

03:57.16
lifuom10
Um.

04:07.30
Neema
So from day one I knew it was going to be a remote company. So I think that's important so in 2019 I moved to Germany and I lived in Germany for 3 years and then after that I moved here to Australia um, and I had to move to Australia for family reasons with covid like it was just a family decision that had to be made and the time zones are crazy. It's.

04:09.55
lifuom10
M.

04:16.19
lifuom10
And.

04:22.70
lifuom10
Yeah, and.

04:26.53
Neema
Really very and like the we're 8 hours ahead here or sometimes 9 So it's a pretty pretty difficult time zone but it can work so it basically means that I would have the morning free and then I sort of start working at like 3 or 4 pm and then I have to go late into the night

04:31.48
lifuom10
O.

04:44.65
Neema
But 1 other important information that I should actually give is that when I started policy so already said that it was always going to be remote. That was 1 thing that was baked into it. So for example, when covid hit it didn't really affect our operations in any way because we were already a remote organization and in fact.

04:56.35
lifuom10
Yeah.

05:02.88
Neema
We grew significantly during covid because it allowed me to be even more remote if that makes sense like it allowed me to hire people from other countries and to really get the best of the best and it really helped us grow but the other thing that I should add is that I actually stepped away from running policy last year

05:03.38
lifuom10
Ah.

05:10.42
lifuom10
Um, yeah, yeah.

05:20.77
lifuom10
N.

05:22.44
Neema
So I stepped down from my role as the executive director in August of last year because the plan was always to only run policy for 5 years so it was to set up something and to run it for 5 years and at the end of that to move on. But then I didn't really hit my 5 year target so I actually stepped down.

05:29.56
lifuom10
Okay.

05:38.71
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

05:40.38
Neema
After 6 years and a few months maybe six and a half years so but it was always in the plan that I would eventually stepped on whether I would have been in Germany or Uganda or something because I I really enjoy the entrepreneurial side of starting something versus managing and running something.

05:53.77
lifuom10
Um, yeah I do I do understand and and and your primary career is an epidemi epidemiology and research mph.

05:57.85
Neema
So I think that's just who I am as a person.

06:06.72
Neema
When.

06:09.49
lifuom10
Ah, what are some of the lessons. Ah you learned there that you took with you ah and enabled you to start policy.

06:18.58
Neema
Yeah, good question. So the crux of policies work is research so we as I said we're obsessive about the impact or of technology.

06:24.13
lifuom10
M.

06:34.40
Neema
And so for that we have to do research and we're trying to do high quality research whether it's quantitative or qualitative and as an epidemiologist those are all the skills that I learned you know it's statistics and some and so that was just a perfect skill to have to work with data. So I just.

06:41.40
lifuom10
Yes.

06:46.81
lifuom10
2

06:51.36
Neema
I Had no idea at the time when I did my mpa that that was what I was going to do but I did epidemiology because you know it sounded interesting and you know the the study of diseases on a mass scale. It sounded quite interesting I never did work in epidemiology I I It was just not a career that happened for me.

06:58.80
lifuom10
Yeah.

07:08.72
lifuom10
Oh.

07:10.21
Neema
But those skills have been extremely transferable and extremely useful and I think everyone should take courses and statistics because it will always always be useful.

07:18.97
lifuom10
Right? right? and and not to be repetitive. But then you changed and and and and went to be an entrepreneur especially in tech and and and focusing on and and women how did you?? um, come to that was it and. Easy decision was it an easy transition for you.

07:41.16
Neema
It was but as I said it wasn't a natural one. It wasn't I didn't wake up and decide I was going to work on Tech and woman I I woke up and decided I was going to work on data and governments and then of course.

07:49.30
lifuom10
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, um.

07:57.78
Neema
Was young and starry-eyed and I think everyone should be young and you know have I think I'm going to go on a different tangent for a second. But I think there's something extremely beautiful about being young and optimistic because I started policy in my twenty s I'm now in my 30 s.

08:05.47
lifuom10
Right? right.

08:11.75
lifuom10
M.

08:17.69
Neema
And once you've seen the world. You become a little bit pessimistic a little bit or or like you know you know all the things that can go wrong and that stops you from doing things because you're like oh well that could go wrong and then I'd have to pay too much tax and then.

08:26.81
lifuom10
Oh.

08:33.36
Neema
Like you you you' seen in the world. But then when you're younger and you it's just everything feels possible and it is possible because you have that energy and that belief. So yeah I was young and I was like yes I will work with governments and I will will work on data and it'll be amazing. But of course it's not easy to work with governments when you're not bringing money to the table and so.

08:46.34
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah.

08:53.29
Neema
I Actually ended up going to this workshop where I learned about feminist internet and feminist tech and I thought that was super interesting and that's when I made the pivot and I started working on woman and tech and I Absolutely loved it. I've always been a feminist I've never I've never studied it like I never went to school to study feminism where I didn't read feminism.

09:09.66
lifuom10
Yeah.

09:10.85
Neema
Books but like deep inside my heart I knew that I always wanted women. You know to have equal education and equal jobs and I firmly believed in that and so I just became very natural that yes this this is super exciting woman in tech I've always been interested in tech like I've been playing video games since I was like 2 years old um

09:28.70
lifuom10
Um, yeah.

09:30.57
Neema
I Think the reason I actually I I think about my schooling as a a misguidance in some way because I think that I was I was just at the wrong time I was at a time where honestly.

09:40.48
lifuom10
Ah.

09:46.95
lifuom10
Um.

09:49.13
Neema
There was no guidance for me to go into Techck Nobody advised me that you know you enjoy Tech Why Why don't you do that as a living I was always advised to go into health and medicine and to do something caring and you know people would be like oh you're so good with kids. You should be a pediatrician. Um, and that was the advice I got and obviously I took it and so I feel like I did it but it wasn't what I really wanted to do but I had no role models I had not seen any woman in Tech I didn't know what careers were possible like a lot of the careers now in digital rights like we didn't know these were.

10:25.68
lifuom10
Button.

10:26.90
Neema
Going to be careers at all that that what I do now if I knew that as a kid like this is what I could be doing like I would definitely have studied computer science or something along those lines but it really comes down to who are your role models and who do you have in life to send you in the right direction. So for me, it was a bit of a divergence.

10:33.57
lifuom10
M.

10:44.70
Neema
And then coming back onto the pot that I actually like.

10:45.97
lifuom10
Oh nema, you don't know you just hit enough I can relate so so much to that and and I wish and and and it's my hope that someone listening to it to this who could be in the same situation. You Know. Has the confidence and and to to change that trajectory and and and be what who who? and what they want to be. Thank you. Thank you for saying that and we've we've had of the time. Yeah.

11:06.82
Neema
A.

11:12.85
Neema
Yeah, also think like I don't blame like my parents for anyone. It's it's that they are I fully understand that parents are scared for your future as well because like you know what I'm I'm an artist as well right? So I love doing art and.

11:22.52
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah.

11:30.00
Neema
I was absolutely discouraged like they were like no no, no, no, you can do art art is a hobby and I get it I get it because your parents are worried about your financial future and I especially empathize with parents of today as well because the future is so uncertain.

11:30.51
lifuom10
Oh.

11:40.96
lifuom10
M.

11:45.73
Neema
You have no idea what the jobs of the future are going to be like what is Ai going to take over so at the same time I have a lot of empathy for people trying to guide young people because it is very confusing right now.

11:58.18
lifuom10
Yeah, it is. It is my primary ah career is in medical science and I carried on with that up until one day I thought you know there is no use being unhappy because if this is your career you you live is something you leave you know.

12:01.72
Neema
No.

12:07.98
Neema
E.

12:14.22
lifuom10
And ah, there's no use complaining all the time just go for what you love and and if you want to change if you want to reinvent yourself. Do do that and it seemed like I'm crazy then or I'm I'm irresponslyrresponsible but I thought you know what I'm just going to to honor myself.

12:19.45
Neema
No yeah.

12:33.27
lifuom10
And be true to myself and it doesn't look it. It isn't an easy thing to do but you just have to have the guts and and just follow follow your heart and and and thank you Thank you for saying that mention in that. Yeah.

12:45.40
Neema
And was welcome.

12:50.40
lifuom10
Yeah, and and and we we hear of the term Civic Technology. You talked about going to government offices and there's papers and there is no um, um, data and and but not many of us really ah understand. Ah, the time Civic Technology. So What is Civic technology.

13:09.89
Neema
Yeah, so Civic technology is in my view. It's any technology that can help citizens in how they interact with governments. So there's also like a number of words like some people call it Govtech So it's like yep.

13:21.62
lifuom10
And.

13:27.77
Neema
The other side. It's like the tech that Guv uses um some people call it Public Interest tech for example, like technology in the interest of the public but it's any I feel like it's any technology that supports the interaction between Citizen and government and it could be anything like for example.

13:36.54
lifuom10
Okay. Are.

13:46.60
Neema
When you go to get your visa you know E visa services that's an interaction or you get your driver's license or you get your house your land title depending on what country you are and it's digital. For example, so it's.

13:49.40
lifuom10
And.

13:59.00
lifuom10
Is.

14:00.76
Neema
It doesn't always have to be digital per se but it is like in some form using technology to ease the process so instead of driving and sitting in traffic and going to your local government office to file your taxes you just submit it online without ever leaving your house for example, but it's not just about those services. It's also making them.

14:13.62
lifuom10
Ah, queer. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

14:20.24
Neema
User friendly. So if there's you know a lady in the village who does not speak English or whatever the predominant colonial language is but the service is still available to her in her local language or if somebody is not um, cannot hear.

14:28.92
lifuom10
M.

14:39.41
Neema
Very well that there so or see there's some service that ah helps them with whatever disability they have that they can still use the service. So it's not just a matter of building tech but really building tech that is humanist in nature that is tailored to the actual needs of those very citizens.

14:46.78
lifuom10
E.

14:56.67
lifuom10
Oh.

14:58.30
Neema
And it's anything that just improves the service that you receive you know and and I think we just need a lot of that because there are a lot of uncomfortable touch points with government I think a lot of especially in the African context like a lot of civil servants always act like they're doing you a favor but it's like actually.

15:16.66
lifuom10
Oh yeah, um.

15:18.30
Neema
A lot of us are paying taxes and we're doing you a favor and you have a job and you you should you know and and things you go to other countries and you just you see like when I lived in Germany the our local town. You know they had this really nice office.

15:32.53
lifuom10
M.

15:37.29
Neema
And you got a little ticket and maybe you waited 5 minutes and then you went to this comfortable desk and they spoke to you nicely and they helped you at whatever it was you wanted in a very polite manner and you got the thing done and it was like why can't why can't the rest of us have this why can't we be treated.

15:43.22
lifuom10
O n.

15:55.25
Neema
On a basic level nicely. Why do we have to go into a shed and be hot and be sweaty and be yelled at. And yeah, there's a different way of doing things and I would like to see that happen.

15:59.83
lifuom10
Oh nima? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which takes me to to our next discussion. Do you see the civic tech being fairly adopted by governments specifically here in Africa.

16:18.93
Neema
Um, I think there have been huge strides I have to say like huge huge jude strides especially like in the in in Uganda where policy is based their vineya massive massive strides like you know we do our taxes.

16:20.42
lifuom10
Oh.

16:28.43
lifuom10
Um, yeah, yeah.

16:34.21
Neema
Online We submit a lot of our paperwork online. You can get work permits Visas you can do that process online a lot has been digitized. Um, and there's certain offices that just work really well and I guess it comes down to leadership at the end of the day. But.

16:49.32
lifuom10
Yeah.

16:53.18
Neema
I think the changes in Uganda are very very. You can really see that things are happening things are changing. There are some people in there that are doing a great job I can't speak for all countries I know all countries are trying to some extent some are getting it right? Some are not. But yeah, it's a journey and I think all countries all over the world are trying to figure it out.

16:57.88
lifuom10
Yeah.

17:03.26
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

17:11.60
lifuom10
Yeah.

17:12.95
Neema
I Think moving forward like questions of privacy and safety and security might might become bigger issues as well. But but it is nice to see the changes that have actually happened.

17:20.40
lifuom10
Um, yeah.

17:22.95
lifuom10
Yeah, and and obviously this changes when you look at our African landscape they need. Um you know good or robust internet infrastructure and we see and and fast internets ah like stayling.

17:34.80
Neema
Morning evening. With us.

17:42.19
lifuom10
Being it has been adopted by some african countries but it's not being adopted. Ah, it's actually been banned in some in some countries like Nieja South africa is's 1 of them Ghana and Bozwaana Zimbabwe you know because of regulatory issues that are saying no you you this is.

17:49.69
Neema
In.

18:00.83
lifuom10
Isn't in line with our regulation I don't know if if I don't know what to think about it if I know recently some that way you know, accessing the the internet maybe um, ah roaming it from other countries where that link is being used like Kenya Zambia they got disconnected.

18:19.78
Neema
Um.

18:20.11
lifuom10
Ah, recently because it's not allowed and if this is an ah internet that can be used in remotest of places you know I don't know if if we are moving back. We are moving forward at a noise. It's a little bit. Yeah, it's a little bit confusing.

18:38.26
lifuom10
I Know it's politics but I don't know I don't know if we are yeah.

18:40.26
Neema
Um I don't know enough about staling They haven't really been following it. But I mean a lot of countries have really dismal internet like a lot of like yeah I mean.

18:44.99
lifuom10
O O o.

18:55.23
Neema
In Uganda oftentimes you leave like a so capital cities or you leave major cities and there's just no internet connectivity. Ah, and then we even when you're in our in our our office is located next to an internet service provider in the same compound and then there's so many times where internet doesn't work.

18:59.26
lifuom10
There isn't yeah yeah.

19:10.94
lifuom10
Um, yeah.

19:14.93
Neema
Um, but people really suffer. It's really poor connectivity. The the cables are being cut Underwater um I think it needs a lot of investment like a lot of investment to to improve the internet and to yeah, it's it needs a lot of investment. It's and something.

19:19.13
lifuom10
Yeah.

19:28.65
lifuom10
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

19:34.31
Neema
I would you would hope that over the years it would get better but it does somehow seem to I don't have the numbers but anecdotally it feels like it's getting worse.

19:37.65
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you you know newer you you you talked of exiting policy but you know and not like exiting totally. But you have ganad awards since founding policy. Ah, like Mozilla Foundation Stanford's digital civil society or in fellow day. Um, ah you in top Africa Innovation list um many you will tell us more about those. But. These recognitions you you've had have they now somehow helped put your organization on the map.

20:21.97
Neema
That is a good question. Do I have the right answer have they I can't say one way or another to be honest, um.

20:27.41
lifuom10
Ah, yeah.

20:31.32
lifuom10
M.

20:41.81
Neema
Okay I guess maybe if I frame it would would the organization have reached why it is without those awards. Yes I think it would regardless. Um, but those are what what is interesting about this award. It's not just the award. But it's the.

20:46.62
lifuom10
Okay, okay.

20:57.95
Neema
It's the network that it introduces you to so for me the most important thing is networks and you know who you meet and who you know like for anyone young listening anyone of any age. Let me not discriminate on age when I go to a conference I think the most important thing is that I.

21:00.78
lifuom10
Ah, right.

21:17.27
Neema
I meet people and I form connections with with the view of working in some way together in the future like I think that that is the most important like when I was doing my masters I remember like I did my master's quite young because I graduated during a financial crisis. So.

21:28.14
lifuom10
Um.

21:32.41
lifuom10
Um, yeah.

21:38.14
Neema
Um I remember people telling me like oh the whole point of your masters is the networks like you you do a masters you know to form these like an Mba or whatever and I was young and I was like ah, whatever. But honestly so true so true like

21:48.46
lifuom10
Ah, yeah, it is. Yeah yeah.

21:54.50
Neema
So Much of what you can achieve it. It comes down to your networks and it's not like it doesn't mean that you you know you're 21 like who am I going to know who am I going to Meet. It's still so important who you like you you can be friends with another 21 year old. And then ten years later they're you know they're somewhere that you want to collaborate with and it's not.. It's not in the sense like oh you're you're using people for something in the future. But it's It's really important to to build strong networks in any case because and I and I Also. Becoming a little preachy but also just being kind to everyone I see this all the time where like for example, when I was starting out like just the way people like didn't respect my time or didn't see a point in engaging with me. For example, you know.

22:33.70
lifuom10
Yeah.

22:42.81
lifuom10
Yeah.

22:49.76
Neema
Maybe if I went to a conference people were like oh I don't really know who she is so I'm not really going to give her the 10 day but but not doing that like every one you meet is worth understanding and knowing because you just never know where you're both going to end up in like even 1 year you just have no idea. So. It's like make good networks and be kind when you can and I think that that is really a way for you to grow. Whatever it is. You're doing.

23:11.29
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah, true and and you know we cannot talk about tech technology and not mention artificial intelligence. You know it's this big thing happening.

23:21.42
Neema
Yeah.

23:25.76
lifuom10
And ah in the Uae for some years now they've had a minister of ai I don't know if it's to regulate this? Um, but when you look at the landscape on a macro level. Do you think this is what other governments should be looking at you know to have regulator bodies. Um, in terms of Ai you know for policy and regulation. What are your thoughts about that.

23:50.24
Neema
I think I wouldn't say you need to have a minister of Ai but say it does feel like it's a lot of hype at the moment I would say you but you you do need.

23:55.20
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah.

24:05.94
Neema
Government regulation on any emerging technology. Um on a macro level. Yes I think any new technology that happens we need to understand it. We need to see the pros. The cons the usefulness. The applicability absolutely and also you need to understand how you are going to regulate it because if you don't come from an informed perspective either. You get blown away by the hype when nothing is actually happening or you.

24:31.86
lifuom10
M. M.

24:40.75
Neema
Come from a place of fear where you're like oh I don't really understand what's going on. So maybe I should ban it or something like that. But I would love to see governments having like yes we have ministries of Ict ministries of it. Whatever but like really.

24:53.99
lifuom10
Right? right.

24:59.26
Neema
Dedicating resources to understanding the tech and regulating it in a smart and informed manner I think that that is super important because yeah, it's um, it's a lot of Hype and there's a lot of other stuff that is going on in general around technology that. We've not even addressed for example and yes Ai does amplify it further so you know if you take misinformation and disinformation that yes with Ai you can like max it you know you can create so many boss and create so much content and translate it to all these different languages and spread disinformation at an unprecedented rate.

25:22.43
lifuom10
Um.

25:34.80
lifuom10
True. Yeah.

25:38.61
Neema
Um, but I mean when you think of many African countries as we already spoke. We're literally struggling with internet access. You know we're struggling with people getting digital literacy to even go on the internet we're struggling with woman and the digital gender divide like what.

25:46.42
lifuom10
Yep.

25:57.59
Neema
Just because there's something new and sexy. It doesn't mean we've solved these other structural issues that we still need to to Target and to solve. So um I guess in some ways it feels like a distraction like it's really distracting ministries.

25:58.52
lifuom10
Um.

26:03.81
lifuom10
And.

26:15.47
Neema
That need to be focusing the energy that on on just providing internet. For example. So yeah I I would say no to a minister of Ai.

26:18.45
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So so I read you know I was I was thinking because there's so many we get so much bombarded with so much information and and people saying what are we going to do now when this. Ai becomes you know sentient and it transcends our human intelligence and if nobody is looking out all these smart tech people can do anything you know and there's no one stopping them and and we we moved from those Ai is going to take our jobs and we're all going to be unemployed and.

26:41.13
Neema
Um, a.

26:45.67
Neema
I.

26:55.89
lifuom10
There's a lot of things going on but I hear what you're saying we we we we here in Africa I mean let alone a I we have connectivity issues we have service issues you know governments in in my country. Ah, lusuttua come from I have to drive to the next district to renew my my my drivers license and when I get there. We're told days we are out of paper. We are out of something and and do weight and I mean there's so many things we we we need to fix and and and have a look at.

27:20.93
Neema
In you? yeah.

27:31.36
lifuom10
But notwithstanding that um, we also need to um, not somehow catch up but be at a certain level in terms of technology use and and I com ah companies such as yours policy for for for for doing this? um.

27:50.53
Neema
O.

27:50.81
lifuom10
You know I I read a blog that you wrote recently but on on use of of um, Ai or you know chat it to p in companies if so you're asked to be to give a report and you just go chat jit be did pity and copy and paste everything. Um, can we explore that that piece briefly where do we draw the line. Yeah yeah, ah, yeah, where you where do we draw the line. Yeah.

28:14.22
Neema
You have opened a can of ones. Ah oh my godsh with he is so I use Chad Gp T almost daily like.

28:29.56
lifuom10
M.

28:31.91
Neema
And people are like what do you use it for but just something I always have a question or I have something I want to rewrite or draft something or yeah, it's even better than a Google search honestly, you go on Google search you have a simple question. How do I get.

28:45.41
lifuom10
It is.

28:50.51
Neema
Tomato Kech abstainin out of my white shirt. These are the problems I have and you go to chat? G pke it gives you like 5 easy answers you go on Google it's like 50 ads you know to just see to read 1 page just ad after ad after ad it's it's nauseating. Um I mean I guess it's a matter of time before chagpd starts showing you ads. But.

28:53.60
lifuom10
It? yeah.

29:04.24
lifuom10
Yeah.

29:10.50
lifuom10
Yeah.

29:10.18
Neema
Anyway, for now it's um, it's easy to navigate. But the problem with that is that I can always spot when somebody has used chat Gpt to write something and it's soulless. There's no obviously it's soulless. It's computer. It's and so people write these.

29:19.54
lifuom10
M. And m.

29:28.54
Neema
Whatever it is. There's their report the Linkedin post their strategic plan and you can see that it's this written by a computer and it really messes with you because you're like.

29:37.70
lifuom10
But yeah. Yeah.

29:43.67
Neema
This it just it doesn't read Well it doesn't look well. Also it makes me it makes me question what you're doing and I think for me, it's It's also been conflicting because on some parts I'm like it is unfair that everyone has to be judged by their grasp.

29:54.72
lifuom10
Um.

30:02.67
Neema
Of the english language it is unfair for sure and that chat Gpt definitely improves text that people have written. But if you start from chad gpt that's your starting point like you've not actually written anything with your own brain.

30:03.94
lifuom10
True true. Yeah.

30:22.49
Neema
And then gone to chat with you to fix it for you. You're actually going to charge Gp to write the whole thing for is completely soulless. It's so totally see through and I think the other thing that I'm also and I'm not saying I have full opinions on this because I think these are new technologies and I'm still coming to grasp with that myself. Um, and as an artist myself.

30:22.88
lifuom10
Um.

30:27.95
lifuom10
M.

30:36.78
lifuom10
Yeah.

30:41.55
Neema
When I see people using generative ai on their reports or whatever I Really do feel some kind of way you know it's.

30:46.20
lifuom10
That.

30:56.93
Neema
Because like I mean I can give you an example where I I'm in like the subreddit for writing I Just like to be on it to I'm always in the process of writing a novel never finished one anyway. But I'm still in the group just to see what other people are doing and.

31:09.26
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

31:15.90
Neema
At some point like some of the writers were complaining that you know they've had less jobs because of chad gpt but then the same writers will use generative Ai to make images for their book covers and it's like don't you see it's the same thing. It's the exact same thing you're doing it to another industry. Where you're suddenly saying I don't need artists I don't need designers. But then all you end up with is things that just look the same It's like same say I don't know it's it's just creating a lot of rubbish content in the world and it's like we already have so much rubbish content. But.

31:34.28
lifuom10
Um.

31:52.90
Neema
Yeah, and then I you know I have conflicting views on this and it will remain to be seen how the technology changes.

31:55.96
lifuom10
Yeah I think we call it you Yeah, we would call it what it is. It's plasurism. It's it's repetitive you take something that is' in your views at all and you put a day and you you post.

32:06.56
Neema
Um, yeah.

32:12.56
lifuom10
You pose it as your views so that is what is pleasuresism is but it's just now tech based or I don't know but but I hear you I am we we? we we got it it? Yeah yeah.

32:15.83
Neema
Um, yeah.

32:20.99
Neema
Yeah, it's acceptable in some way right now. Somehow it's and it is I think it is nice to see people's writing styles. You know, just.

32:32.35
lifuom10
Yeah.

32:34.89
Neema
Just uniquely how people write how people think without going through this filter of Ai. But I think the other weird thing is yeah the the the blog post that I actually wrote was thinking about how organizations are going to accept the use of Ai because we had a colleague who would.

32:42.20
lifuom10
Um.

32:54.13
Neema
Write us Ai emails and it was super easy to see it was an Ai email because for like 3 4 years we received his emails. We know what he writes like and then they would suddenly be totally different type of emails after cha gpt was released. Um.

33:04.32
lifuom10
Ah, yeah.

33:11.74
Neema
Then it's just like this is not okay, but the question was like why is it not okay like they're still communicating with you but it just felt like I was talking to a computer. It felt like I was talking to something that's not human. That's what it felt like I think that was the unease of the whole thing is that I'm not communicating with a human being.

33:15.19
lifuom10
N.

33:24.60
lifuom10
I.

33:30.40
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know? yeah.

33:31.55
Neema
And so what is the point of communication if I'm talking to a robot I guess but then is that just our future are we all just going to be talking to robots Anyway is this person actually ahead of the curve I don't know it.

33:44.60
lifuom10
Yeah, it's it's confusing it is it is confusing I mean I wouldn't want to talk to I wouldn't run to talk to E Robert you know, especially it's like pretense and and you pretending It's just an email and just write an email.

33:48.32
Neema
So.

34:00.13
Neema
But I mean a lot of people are making money from that you know there's the the Ai girlfriend Ai boyfriend apps where people are talking to robots and getting comfort or or alleviating their loneliness in some way. So.

34:02.38
lifuom10
I Don't know. Yeah.

34:15.34
lifuom10
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, interesting yeah and and and um you you guys are doing amazing work at at policy currently. But now that you you.

34:19.50
Neema
Wolf.

34:32.56
lifuom10
Wouldn't be there full time. What is next for policy or next for you.

34:38.55
Neema
2 very different questions. Okay, um I guess policy will continue to do what it's you know, set out to do feminist internet stuff. The interesting thing with a company like that is there's all because of just where we are as as.

34:40.85
lifuom10
And.

34:48.70
lifuom10
Yes.

34:57.25
Neema
As the human race. There's always going to be some new tech and there's always going to be a need to understand how it impacts society So it sort of feels like it will There will always be work to do in some sense you know and it will always be.

34:59.59
lifuom10
A.

35:12.27
lifuom10
Run.

35:15.56
Neema
Interesting because we've always gone. We've always gone with the trend. You know? So if right now is Ai so ai is out there. How does Ai impact african women.

35:25.24
lifuom10
Yeah.

35:28.20
Neema
How can women benefit from ai what is there other than chat gpt. There's so much more to Ai than just generative Ai um and then in six months I don't know what new tech they'll be you know and.

35:39.67
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

35:42.30
Neema
Then we'll have to talk about that. So it's always going to be something new and fun and exciting and I think that's what makes it really really fun and it's always about trying to make that information accessible to more people to bring more people into the discussion like a lot of what we've been trying to do is.

35:47.15
lifuom10
Yeah.

35:59.66
Neema
You know feminist organizations have they've been organizing for years. You know? um, but we need their voices when we talk to tech platforms. We need them when we talk to governments because they have the experience but then oftentimes they get scared away by the tech.

36:17.75
lifuom10
Yeah.

36:19.40
Neema
They'll be like oh I'm not really a techie I don't know anything but this but but you bring such a unique view that we need to bring to the table to talk about how tech is impacting our society. So. It's this need to bring a wide variety of stakeholders together to talk about how technology is going to impact you because. You can't stay away anymore. Everything is online. Everything is touched by technology. So. There's no point in trying away and then for me I'm starting something new I will I will ah it's been a long time and it's not a long time in the making I've I've just been spending a few.

36:42.48
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Reveal e.

36:58.29
Neema
Of months trying to decide what I want to do next I think it's um I did consider going back to employment I thought it would be interesting but I will not I think I've.

36:59.92
lifuom10
This.

37:05.70
lifuom10
Okay, yeah.

37:15.31
Neema
I think I've either had jobs that were very where I had a lot of Independence or yeah I did the entrepreneurial stuff. So I I do feel I might struggle if I had to go back into employment. But.

37:28.37
lifuom10
And.

37:33.63
Neema
Maybe it would be less stressful which would be nice I feel like I'm in my my non-stressful soft life right now. But no I couldn't stay away from it I can't stay away from the the I like it I like the.

37:40.95
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah.

37:51.50
Neema
I Like the anxiety and I like the the stress a little bit that comes from starting something new I think it's It's a little bit addictive I guess but.

37:57.77
lifuom10
You're an entrepreneur Yeah yeah, I don't know I read I read this somewhere I don't know where and maybe probably an x Twitter way to say it's so hard. To to employ an entrepreneur not hard to employ. You can, but it would be hard for them somehow because they are using they are used to this freedom and independence. Um, even in independent independence in thinking you knowly and when now you put them back in there.

38:12.24
Neema
Oh and a.

38:30.16
lifuom10
In the employment sector where everything is especially especially in places where you're micromanaged and it can be. It can be really ah challenging. Um, ah but I hear you completely I hear you well. Ah.

38:35.53
Neema
Yeah.

38:41.88
Neema
Is specific. It is.

38:47.67
lifuom10
And and nua in closing. What is your favorite book or even if it it isn't favorite but a book that you have read that you know what made a change in your geno. You can You can think of that to as pivotvaal in Neo geno of entrepreneurship that you can share with us I recommend.

39:06.46
Neema
Yeah I struggled a bit with this question to think of a book that particularly impacted my journey I I really struggled for a long time to read nonfiction like.

39:18.11
lifuom10
And.

39:24.60
lifuom10
M.

39:25.97
Neema
I think I only started reading nonfiction in the very recent past because I often feel like want to sound etc hateer I feel like a lot of nonfiction books especially aimed at entrepreneurs oftentimes. It could just be like a 10 page paper but it's expanded into.

39:29.33
lifuom10
Okay.

39:45.75
lifuom10
I see.

39:45.95
Neema
Ah, 300 page book. But I've always been much more a fan of fiction I think through fiction you can just learn so much more about the human condition and I think that that is somehow important to entrepreneurship. But.

39:55.22
lifuom10
Who.

40:03.56
Neema
1 of the things I actually wanted to do when I stepped down from policy was that I wanted to I wanted to write the book that I wish I did have access to because I realized that I learned so much on the job.

40:14.43
lifuom10
Aha.

40:20.67
lifuom10
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

40:20.67
Neema
Which you have to do anyway. I'm not saying that there's any shortcut to that. The only way through is through you got to do it to know it. But I think there's a lot that I had to figure out myself and it does when I look back I'm like I didn't have to figure out myself like everyone is doing this. You know like people before me have had to do this. But then when I think about like what resources did I have like specifically to starting a business or a nonprofit in Uganda to understand the system there and maybe to extrapolate that to other african countries or maybe East Africa I think that i.

40:41.50
lifuom10
Mm.

40:49.70
lifuom10
Yeah.

41:00.11
Neema
I don't I feel like there's and I could not find a book that had that all in 1 place like the fact that you would like how do you make? This is something that even my finance managers struggled with like how do you make a budget for a donor.

41:03.52
lifuom10
O.

41:17.64
Neema
For the type of research that we do you know for example or how do you do an audit. How do you organize your files. How do you do your taxes like all that stuff. It's yeah, it's pretty boring I'm not gonna.

41:18.98
lifuom10
Who.

41:28.89
lifuom10
M.

41:34.17
Neema
Not Goingnna deny it but it has to be done. There's no way around it wherever you are you have to do that stuff. How do you approach donors. How do you get funding. How do you write winning proposals like all of that stuff and I've learned so much of that and I feel like that someone needs to write that book and it needs to sort of.

41:35.67
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

41:45.42
lifuom10
Ah, that that's important.

41:52.96
Neema
Like a living document you know of would actually almost be nice if it was like a collaborative living document that people could could really benefit from because there's some people who who know these things and yet can get way ahead based on.

41:53.72
lifuom10
M.

41:59.56
lifuom10
M.

42:11.56
Neema
Yeah I mean in general if you have the skills. But yeah, um, all that to say that I do not have a book that helped me specifically but I wish I did but I will share a book that I I quite really enjoyed. Um, it's called girl woman other by.

42:12.38
lifuom10
Yeah.

42:21.84
lifuom10
Okay. But.

42:31.32
Neema
Benaettet avaistto let me make sure I'm telling spelling her name correct. Oh no, it's bernardine ever everistto sorry my dad um and it's a book that's like a collection. It's 1 story but within it it follows the lives of.

42:32.31
lifuom10
Here? Yeah Ban the in everris.

42:50.84
Neema
12 different women and just like yeah there's struggles and there are different ages from different areas from different backgrounds and I really really enjoyed it I also one of the things about the book is that it plays around with the very structure of sentences like.

43:00.39
lifuom10
Ah.

43:09.83
Neema
<unk>s no punctuation in the book for example, but then you realize that it doesn't really matter. You don't really need punctuation apparently and that you can perfectly read a book. Um, it's super interesting. It's really well written. It's really enjoyable and I would just recommend everyone to read it like it is the perfect gift if like the perfect gift.

43:14.72
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

43:24.17
lifuom10
Well.

43:29.60
Neema
If you know someone who has not read it. It's just a perfect gift to give them.

43:31.77
lifuom10
Yeah, yeah, wow Nima! Thank you and and please when you get the time write that book that book. You wish you you you had I feel like it would be something I don't know if a handbook but it would be something that would really be helpful.

43:42.15
Neema
Um, yeah.

43:50.30
lifuom10
To a lot of people. Um, please um I know you will I know you will get to it. Thank you, thank you so much I do I do hundred percent thank you for being here with us nima and and um, dispensing this insightful naggetss.

43:57.43
Neema
Um, thank you for believing in me.

44:08.15
lifuom10
About your organization and and Civic technology in general. Thank you for affording us your time I cannot thank you enough.

44:17.51
Neema
You are most welcome. Thank you for having me I really enjoyed the conversation I Really like the questions and yeah I wish you the best of luck in the rest of your episodes.